With acting stints on Victorious and Insecure and a Grammy win for co-writing SZA’s monster R&B smash “Snooze” in his rearview, Leon Thomas is ready to level up. As he prepares for the full release of sophomore studio album, Mutt, on Friday (Sept. 28), the virtuosic multihyphenate artist declares, “It’s war outside.”
As the first signee to Ty Dolla $ign’s EZMNY Records – an imprint launched in 2022 through his joint venture deal with Motown – Thomas gets a routinely up-close look at how one of 2010s R&B’s greatest movers and shakers transitioned from an ever-dependable supporting star to a lead artist with Billboard 200-topping albums and Billboard Hot 100-topping singles of his own. Those studies have resulted in a notable shift in headspace for Thomas; “It’s a blessing to have these talents. I worked hard on them, so I gotta treat them right, and these songs are definitely a representation of that,” he tells Billboard days after our Ice Spice-hosted R&B/Hip-Hop Power Players Week afterparty (Sept. 6).
Mutt finds Thomas fully stepping into his love for rock music – from the influence of his parents while growing up in Brooklyn to his recent obsession with Black Sabbath’s 1970 Paranoid LP. Featuring collaborations with Ty Dolla $ign, Masego, Wale, Baby Rose, Axlfolie and Freddie Gibbs, Mutt brings Thomas to the frontlines of another kind of war. A 21st-century specific battle of the ebb and flow of relationship arcs uniquely informed by dating apps and shifting generational perceptions of marriage and love. Back in June, Thomas told Billboard that he was “happy being single and wanted to document that.” Now, the R&B maestro offers up Mutt as a sort of musical anthropologic survey on the state of love and courtship in the 2020s.
In an expansive conversation with Billboard, Leon Thomas breaks down the making of Mutt, muses about a return to acting and sings the praises of microdosing psychedelics.
How do you find growing up in Brooklyn has influenced your sound and approach to music?
It’s interesting! Growing up in Park Slope, the kids on my block [were] multicultural. We had the Spanish homie down the block and this white girl I used to skateboard with all the time [who] was putting me onto rock’n’roll and grunge and punk. Going to school in Cobble Hill, I was down the street from the Gowanus Projects, so I’m also tapping in with Dipset and the whole Uptown sound of hip-hop from that era. I [was] a student of the world growing up in New York. I got to hear everything.
Do you feel like any of those influences really shined on Mutt in particular?
For sure. My parents were part of the Black Rock Coalition out here. They was playing at rock clubs like CBGB, my mom used to have dyed hair and shit, my pops had the Jheri Curl and he was playing all the solos. Growing up, rock has been a big influence and there’s a couple of records [on Mutt] where I play with those themes. I like to blend genres on certain songs. I never like to go full-blown The Strokes or anything, because I don’t want to confuse my fan base. But just know it’s always there.
Is that something that weighs on your mind as you make each new project? Trying not to confuse your fan base while still staying true to your artistic development?
I don’t want to say this and sound like a d–k, but I really create selfishly. I’m chasing shit that feels good for me, man. The whole reason I was really excited to be an artist is because when I’m working with other artists, they’re just so stressed about TikTok and singles and shit. For me, when I’m an artist, it’s like a break from the boundaries and the borders. I can actually paint freely and do what the f—k I want to do. And I want to win. I’m lucky to have really talented friends who are down to do features and build with me, but I’m definitely just rocking with my taste buds, because I’m usually pretty early on shit.
Why was “Mutt” the right choice for both a title track and the lead single?
Well, they’re giving me a month to promote this f—king album, bro. [Laughs.] So I’m thinking about it like this: “That’s the title track, it’s got a little tempo, it’s funky as hell… a win is a win!” We can tell people about the album at the same time that we push the single. I’m just doing my best to fight through the clusterf—k that is the Internet right now and not get swept away by Ice Spice beefing with [Cleotrapa].
In so many ways, the online world feels even more overstimulating than it already is. How do you not lose your mind trying to make sure you and your art are heard and seen?
There’s all these echo chambers and like… I’m f—kin 31, bro. I’m not doing TikToks everyday! Making music means a lot to me, and my music deserves promotion. I’m doing my best to stay tapped in, and I’m just finding my own special way to let people know what I’m on and what I’m doing. There’s always things I can do better, but I think sit-downs like this are really important to help make it tangible and real for people.
We last spoke in Nashville earlier this summer and you were telling me about the process of creating Mutt. What were some of those experiences on your single journey that helped put this record together?
Materialism is a constant theme that flows in and out of this album. Living in L.A., it’s interesting, because everybody’s searching for the next best thing on both sides of the fences. The girls are doing that and the guys are doing that. Everybody’s really confused and there’s a reason that these podcast mics are well-used. [Laughs.] It’s f—king insane being single right now. It’s diabolical, bro. The way I see it, I’m gonna at least document my process. There’s been no other generation that had to deal with Tinder, Instagram, Snapchat, all this other shit – our grandfathers don’t know what the f—k that is! I can’t ask my dad for advice, this is a whole different pocket! I’m really showing my experience through modern technology, and how it influences the way we interact now when it comes to love.
A lot of these songs are about the ups and downs. These songs have been written a million times over from different perspectives and different generations, but I like how specific and detailed I’m getting with the lyrics on this one.
Was most of the album written in L.A.?
L.A. and Florence, Italy, which is random. I was out there working with Ty Dolla $ign and Ye on Vultures 1 for two and a half months. It was right after I put out my first album [2023’s Electric Dusk]. I was finally feeling free again to start thinking about new concepts. One of my favorite joints, I wrote walking through the Ritz Carlton Garden, which is like the Medici estate. Beautiful statues, everything is art, and I was super frustrated that day. That’s why the song’s broody as shit, but having those experiences really helped me round out the end of this album.
But most of [Mutt] was made in my house. I just bought a crib in Mid-City, and I set it up to be a creative zone for myself. I bought some paintings and art to just really capture my essence.
Do you find the different locations bring different things out of you in the songwriting process?
For sure. “Mutt,” in particular, I wrote on my living room floor – shoutout to Polkadot and Silom, those two companies sponsored me randomly. I was microdosing a little bit, and it was an interesting study [about] how it connects the neural pathways in your brain if you go on one day, off two days. I was doing that while I was writing a lot of like tail-end of this album. “Mutt” was inspired by my dog fighting with my cat, and him looking all sad after he got told off by my cat. I saw the similarities between us two and how we have good intentions, but we don’t always do the right thing.
How do you balance having those conversations about us as men not always upholding our best intentions without making it feel like you’re glorifying those choices?
That’s the whole thing. If you really listen to the verses, I’m talking about being vulnerable and actually wanting to love: “You can break my heart if you want to.” I’m super down, but you might have to train his dog because it’s been a while. I feel like toxic R&B isn’t new or special right now, but I think it’s important to really highlight the nuances of what we’re going through. There’s a reason a lot of people aren’t married at 25 or 24 right now. There’s a lot of options and that creates turbulence.
It’s not about being good or bad, it’s about being a person. This whole thing was an internal journey of really figuring it out. We all have that yin and yang, so it’s important to talk about that and and hold myself accountable in ways that I could have done better and talk about the things that some of the girls who were dealing with me could have done better.
“Answer Your Phone” is a knockout ballad. Talk to me about cutting that vocal.
That one was written by Diane Warren. She’s done some huge records, and that’s probably the only song I didn’t have a hand in writing. I was just trying to show off for a legend, man.
She sat me down in the studio at the piano and played me the song by heart like we was in the f—king ‘60s. It was such a moment. I locked in with Freaky Rob and he came through on guitar, drums and bass and we kind of Quincy Jones’d that shit out till it felt really good. To see a legend like [Warren] be amazed and happy and excited and watching her inner child come out while she was listening to it for the first time was amazing. I’m a huge fan of hers. I’m a student of the game, I know she’s written like 20 No. 1s or something!
What’s your favorite Diane Warren song?
“Have You Ever” by Brandy.
On “Dancing With Demons,” you sample some dialogue from Miyazaki’s Howl’s Moving Castle. Why did that feel like the right texture to add to the song?
I set up like a three-week session at my house. I set up lights all over my crib; I was really living life in [pajamas] with a lot of UberEats. I had some psychedelics going on, but I can’t watch live action films when I’m microdosing. So, I watched anime and that film was on. I found some similarities to what I was writing about at the time and it just made sense to me. [Film composer Joe Hisaishi] is really amazing, and I just liked how cinematic that track came together. It was really a spiritual moment. I’m glad it all flowed and people are talking about it because it’s one of my favorites.
Do you find that you get inspiration from movies a lot?
Hell yeah. Coming from the world of acting, sometimes I miss it, man. I miss the process of losing yourself in the character. A lot of my free time is just me watching really good old-school films. I’m into a lot of film noir. I also like tapping into the genres that I hadn’t gotten into as much when I was younger. Film is the thing that I need. I need a movie on when I’m cooking, it just helps my brain a little bit when I’m searching for something.
Do you want to return to acting in the future?
Yeah, but I don’t like the “pick me, massa!” moment [of the audition process]. It’s insane. Being around Issa Rae on Insecure and seeing her power as a Black woman, that’s what I want. Donald Glover, too, I’m a huge fan of him. I really look forward to having a moment where I come up with a TV show or a movie that encompasses my crazy brain.
The cast of characters on Muttt and Electric Dusk are pretty similar. Why was keeping a consistent set of collaborators important to you?
The way my label set this up, I had to do two albums in one cycle. I’m really like to work with my friends, bro. I like vibe out. I like it to feel organic and natural. After the first album, a lot of people are like “Alright! Let’s call in Metro Boomin and all these n—as we do not know who do not came about us and will charge $40,000 for a track.” [Laughs]. I was vibing with my homies and people I had a real relationship with. Throughout the album, I got really close with Freaky Rob and D. Phelps. There’s a reason that Ty’s back, I’m always with him because I’m signed to him. It definitely made a lot of sense to do another record for this album.
Were there any moments where you felt a little bit of anxiety knowing that this is your first project since “Snooze?”
Nah, that ain’t got shit to do with me. It does, but it doesn’t, you know? SZA worked really hard to get there. Before she put out [Ctrl], I was working with her a little bit with my boy Childish Major. I see the similarities between like her being super f—king tight and people not really knowing yet. This game is very political and it’s also about having real fans and that’s why I’m building an actual fan base that understands me and that wants to rock with me and buy the vinyls and the merch and the rest of it.
I’m just being patient with myself, and not putting unbelievable amounts of pressure on what I do, just because I did hit records with other people. It took a while for me to start doing that in writing and production as well. I’m definitely not afraid of building something that’s sturdy instead of having a crazy record that blows out of nowhere with no real fan base to follow it.
I loved the chemistry you and Masego cultivated on “Lucid Dreams.” How did that collaboration come together?
My boy, Jesse Boykins, he’s one of the original hype beast cool kids. I remember when I was in high school, I used to see him and Theophilius London and all the cool kids in in New York running around, taking pictures and just being fly as s—t. When he came to LA, I was one of the first people he kicked it with. He’s really tight with Masego, so we invited me to the studio with him – it was very Zen, incense burning and s—t. Sego was in there are we have two hours to write the record because I had another session right after, but me and Masego became instant homies. To this day, we’re working on a new project together. That original session was just two really talented guys having fun, but it was a conversation too.
After the break-up, my ex left mad clothes at the crib! [Laughs.] Literally a whole wardrobe of s–t; chicks would come over like, “Why do you have heels in your f—king closet?” and then I’d have to explain the whole thing. It turned into this really cool conversation about your significant other leaving things after a breakup… it’s almost like a totem of the relationship not being over.
The concept of marriage gets some airtime on Mutt as well. Were there any other moments in your life where you weren’t thinking about marriage?
When I was younger and broke and s–t, I just felt like the idea of marrying somebdoy and being that guy is insane. You want to be a provider and support your significant other. It’s not about gender roles or anything, it’s just about wanting to kill s—t. I feel like I had so much to figure out – I still do – but I love where I’m at right now. It even helps me sing records like “I Do” a little bit better. I’m still making it work, but I feel more comfortable supporting somebody else outside of myself now.
From an artistic and business standpoint, how would you compare your approach to this album versus Electric Dusk?
I learned a lot being on being in the Motown Universe and hanging around Ty a lot. He’s big on hits, he’s big on “Let’s get the number on, baby!” He has this competitive energy to it and I’m very “flower child” about it all. As I got into this new album, I was like, “Oh shit, it’s war outside.” I’m really going for blood. I’m very confident, I’m f—king nice. Now I’m like, f—k all the humble s–t, but not in a bad way. I’m ready to shift into another gear.
As we get closer to the album drop, what’s the one song on the record that you’re most excited for day one Leon Thomas fans to hear?
I feel like the Shade Room aunties are really going to like “Yes It Is.” I feel like they gonna f—k with me, it’s just body roll ready. They can dig into that one. I gave ‘em one, because I’m wilding on the rest [of the album], you don’t even know what genre I’m in in. But that one is straight up and down R&B with some church chords. The day ones are going to like that.
There are some other ones like “Used To” (with Baby Rose) that I think will resonate well. It’s cool to have that male-female back and forth.
What are your touring plans looking like?
I’m opening up for Blxst for [about] 20 dates and I’m also doing a headline tour too. That’s when I get to bring the whole band and shit. Man, touring…. Oh my God! Can I make some money, please?! [Laughs].
When you were in the trenches of your Mutt era, what was the soundtrack?
This is random as hell, but I was really obsessed with Ozzy Osbourne. Black Sabbath had this album called Paranoid and I was just really rocking with it. Lots of Rolling Stones, David Bowie and Marvin Gaye. I was also working with George Clinton randomly on some record that he was doing, and I really started digging into P-funk and researching all the different artists that he had locked in under his labels. A lot of that dog stuff came from that too, paying homage to the funk legend that is George Clinton.
Are you still in your Mutt phase?
I don’t even really think there was like a solid phase or anything. I just think when you get out of a relationship, it’s like, “Oh! I can talk to people again.” I was just documenting that. Now, I’m just chilling, bro. I don’t really have too much time to frolic around the world and get messy. It’s important right now for me to focus and I wish I could have a real significant other that I was building with prior to this, so it could just be more status quo and chill. But for now, I’m keeping my life as simple as possible.
Do you feel like you hear the call of the status quo the older you get?
Yeah, man. All the homies is getting married. I got a bachelor party to go to in a couple months. I do get a little FOMO. Everybody’s doing the adulting thing, but I’m just busy. It’s not even fair to a significant other right now. It’s nice to maybe flirt with the idea of it, but to be honest though, I don’t know.
Who have you been in the studio with recently?
Me and Giveon have been working a bunch. That’s my brother, we got the same management, so it’s always nice locking in with him. I got some great songs that we’ve worked on together. I’m really excited for the world to hear. Masego, like I said before. Me and Aminé have been really close too, and he’s just so dope. It’s cool to make beats and not be pigeonholed to the same 12 pockets. He’s down to explore and he can rap his ass off. He’s writing like crazy in the studio. Big Sean just put out his new project, so I was working with him and he put Uncle Charlie [Wilson] on the joint I was on, which is amazing. And with Ty, I’m definitely little bro when it comes to him. I’m always in the studio rocking with him and writing records. It’s been cool to see his process and his journey to No. 1s.
I’m really looking forward to just continuing to shoot my shot for myself. It’s been a lot of work on me because I have to be selfish in that way right now. It’s war outside. I gotta get out there and make this s—t happen, man.
